mushroom gets Guile

i added the Race post, and added my first deep dive on the mushroom folks since you posted on it first.  i think you will like a lot of whats there for them.

as for the favored weapon, i dont have one picked but...  this is the fun of freeform world building.  if you want to pick one, you can pick one for the whole race to add to canon!!  some solids ideas would be the fauchard, bec de corbin, or a khopesh.

@jaquin THX!

Arthure of House Akoa.

Arthure was born into privilege. The 2nd son of a higher noble. Being 2nd he was always tutored and prepared  just enough as a suitable back up to his older sibling.

Arthure would often spend time roaming around the plantation interacting with the Leshy Serfs. He rather enjoyed them and would talk with them often.

He'd get lectures on not fratinizing with the commoners but Arthure felt thats what was truly needed. Who knew better the condition of the fields then the Leshy harvesters? Commoners work for a reason. They excel at serving and working, and it is our responsibility  to hear them and take advise on what to do. Arthure if course knew his people were better for ruling making decisions. We understood how to get resources, and more importantly,  hold onto them.

Like many Arthure was very much aware of the illegal immigrants on their land. The spirits were a constant nuisance. He often questioned why we  not expand and aquire new land. The answer always seem to be, manpower and logistics.

High cost in personal and supplies to expand in the wild areas. And difficult and expensive to get the infrastructure needed as well. Arthure thought on these issues. It was true thay both his people and the Lesh were not quite the strongest  or biggest so cooperation with others would be needed. But bringing in partners brings in other interest and goals. And the cost of life would always be estimated to be high. But what if death  wasnt an obstacle?

This thought led him down a path of discovering necromancy. It seems like thr perfect solution to Arthure. If people die, then they can continue working towards the cause!  No tiring or stopping. The most menial and dangerous tasks could be handled  by the undead leaving more important work to others! When he made this proposal st first the others laughed at him until the realized he was serious. Then began the lectures. 

" You dont mess with things you dont understand "

" last thing we need is zombies AND spirits terrorizing us"

" this is evil work"

Blah blah blah.

As usual they just didnt get it. Much like feeling commoners are too lowly to talk to, they were turn their noses up at a great resource! 

For a few years he would try to learn what he could but made little progress. Finally it was time for his education. Almost all noble first borns have tutors summoned to estates to educate the heir. Other children usually didnt have much opportunity, but Arthure was lucky that his house was prosperous and his father had decided to send him to Dark Sun University to have a more " worldly " education.

It was rather kind of him, knowing Arthure would either serve as a steward of the house or have to strike out on his own. But the opportunity  was far greater then Arthure could've imagined! They had a course for so many things, including Necromancy! Arthure immediately  signed up for it, he took electives in other magics as well to try to round out his education  but his passion was Necromancy.

Arthure managed to make an eclectic group of friends, those who could compliment his short falls. His favorite with the Lesh. She reminded him of home but he appreciated her free spirit and joy. It was nice having a Lesh around they are very subservient people. He hadn't trie to lord over her too much but shes always happy to help.

When it came time for final exam Arthure and his friends decided to work together. End goal is to establish a new outpost in a wild area. Each has their own thesis to work on. Arthure couldn't wait to put his necromantic theories into practice, and at the end if all goes well, he will be Lord of his own realm. Maybe even create a cader branch  of House Akoa. Either way, the world is ripe for exploration, expansion, exploitation and.... experimenting.

For clarity, we will be referring what you are doing here as ZOMBIES.  Even if all the flesh gets burned off and it looks more skeleton than zombie, for game definition purposes we are referring to all of these animated/programmed undead automatons as zombies.  proper skeletons is reserved for... something else, as any professional necromancer knows.

Skills you want (bolded ones are primary)

K:Necromancy or various/similar.  Can be renamed to imply various flavors (profession:necromancer or K:Undead).  Also, at this stage, there are non-necro ways to pursue what you are doing as well.  I'm merely focusing this direction based on your presented preference.

Animate Zombie: In combat, 1 Round/Rank, requires touch.  Animated undead just stand there (helpless) until Controlled or otherwise engaged

Spore Animation: Allows use of Animate Undead skills on a living creature to be triggered on its death, 1 Round/Rank total time, regardless of how much of that time is either spored or zombied

Control Undead: Maximum number of undead you can actively control at one time.  For mindless undead that you animated this is automatic, but would turn into several rolls grapple style normally.  Requires concentration to maintain but only requires an action when giving new orders or actively controlling/puppetting them for an action.  Controlled undead can be maintained beyond their animation time as long as there is no break in concentration.

Program Zombie: Gives extended instructions to an animated zombie 1day/Rank (but can be repeated the next day) but Ranks also controls the complexity of the orders.  Rank 1 would need to be as simple as "guard me" or "attack what I attack".  Programmed zombies do not count against your "control undead" maximum... however, you need to have "empty slots" in your control undead maximum in order to program, control, or otherwise give new instructions to effectively automated zombies.  Takes an hour to complete.  The same instructions can be programmed into up to #Ranks of zombies in the same hour.  

Optional affiliated skills:

Mass Animation: Allows use of Animate Undead skills on up to #Ranks targets.  Likely necessitates the next skill unless the bodies are in a pile, but if so 1 finger on the whole stack will do it.

Remote Animation: Allows ranged use of Animate Undead skills.  Type of range must be selected upon skill acquisition: 10'/Rank Targeted up to #Ranks, 10'/Rank Cone, or 5' Rank Aura.  Cone or Aura are only # limited by the other associated skills, not this one.  Blatant energy transfer occurs, and although there are both visual and audio components it is perhaps the noxious scent that is most notable.  

Command Undead: upgrade to Control undead which can give the same order to up to 1 undead/Rank as a Move Action.  attempting to give multiple orders to the same target in the same round typically results in the undead doing nothing

Concentration: won't be required on every hit taken like in 3.5, but it certainly could come up for Controlling Undead past their durations.  Cannot extend concentration beyond Endurance limitations, but provides a bonus to establish or maintain concentration when needed.

Strong Undead: replaces undead strength from base attribute (per type, Zombies are all 1's) with #Ranks.  Options for all attributes (Agile Undead, Perceptive Undead, etc).  Base Zombies will still wield whatever happens to be in their hands.

let me know if you decide on a lordly weapon for your people or want me to pick one; i'm building the mental picture of your peoples lol

@jaquin i think Khopesh since pharaohs were buried with it and depicted makes sense for nobles go have it as a status symbol

Gonna try to get most of my guy fleshed out on lunch.

Some questions.

A skill to extend the time my spores are dormant, only counts towards having  the effect active on the living creature not when they turn zombie. So like if I have 2 ranks in this skill, thats 2 rounds its active on the living creature before it starts counting the rounds that include dormant and undead state.

How would like commanding or binding an intelligent undead to do my bidding? I understand may be more complicated  but something id look towards working for.

Skill to banish spirits from the area/ plane. Seems pertinent to his home situation.

Can you elaborate  how concentration  works?

A skill to extend the time my spores are dormant, only counts towards having  the effect active on the living creature not when they turn zombie. So like if I have 2 ranks in this skill, thats 2 rounds its active on the living creature before it starts counting the rounds that include dormant and undead state.
- yep thats specific enough to be cool

How would like commanding or binding an intelligent undead to do my bidding? I understand may be more complicated  but something id look towards working for.
- on its most basic level just dueling Div checks, but wrinkles might be type based.  example to bind a lich you would need to duel with its phylactery, not its body.

Skill to banish spirits from the area/ plane. Seems pertinent to his home situation.
 - first clarification, these answers are all in reference to UNDEAD spirits.  not to all the normal spirits that might be around, and which are entirely outside of your realm of expertise
- Banish would work very dnd.  roll to hit, dueling Div checks, if you win they gone
- protecting an area is more borderline circle magic, but as long as specialized towards undead its still something you could be familiar with.  sanctifying an area so that undead would need to make a Div check to cross a boundary threshold.  

Can you elaborate  how concentration  works?
- for rolls, typically con/know checks to avoid losing it when confronted with a jarring/consuming task.  examples is hard without knowing your character.  for most characters, walking a tightrope would absolutely necessitate this kind of check.  for a trained acrobat with several ranks in balance, not so much.  getting bitten by a t-rex meanwhile is going to trigger a concentration check for any character.    
not as extreme as 3.5 needing it on every hit, and certainly not as extreme as 5e where you can't do anything while concentrating.  but if you are knocked unconscious or otherwise mentally incapacitated (paralysis fine) concentration is still always lost.

Questions:

1. What is the difference between Zombie and a " proper" skeleton?

2. What type of magic would I need to familiarize myself with to deal with most or all types of spirits.

3. Clarification for:Control Undead:

   3.1"For mindless undead that you animated this is automatic"

for mindless i get automatic  control without a skill check if space available?

    3.2 "Requires concentration to maintain but only requires an action when giving new orders or actively controlling/puppetting them for an action."

        3.2.1 I get instant control but require action to command?

        3.2.2. Actively controlling them for action is i have precise control over whwt they do by using an action? 

   3.3. "but would turn into several rolls grapple style normally"

        3.3.1 When does it turn into grapple rolls

         3.3.2what type of attributes if any are used?

   3.4 "Controlled undead can be maintained beyond their animation time as long as there is no break in concentration."

        3.4.1 when concentration  is broke are the bodies unusable after this like some systems do? Or do they return to being just a corpse?

4. Clarification on Program Zombie

   4.1  "Takes an hour to complete.  The same instructions can be programmed into up to #Ranks of zombies in the same hour.  "

     4.1.1 Takes an hour regardless of ranks?

      4.1.2 can I give only a single set of programs to #Rank of zombies or multiple. Example of what  i mean is. I have 4 ranks. I wish to program 2 zombies to patrol perimeter and program 2 zombies to fight each other. Can I accomplish this in a single 1 hour ritual. Or would it take two separate 1 hour rituals to accomplish this.

5. Further Clarification  on Concentration

  5.1 is it always the same attribute know or con, or can that change?

5.2 if it does change does one skill apply to both?

Questions:

1. What is the difference between Zombie and a " proper" skeleton? - think something like an mtg Reassembling skeleton.  for zombies i just left animation free so you could get rolling, but more advanced undead will start getting behind that onyx paywall 😛 
not going to get into all the types of undead unless/until i see how many Ranks your character has to know of such things.  The most salient point based upon last week's conversations I will get into a bit however.  Animated V Sentient undead
Animated Undead (like zombies and skeletons) have 0 Div.  Any personality they have is either a reflection of their previous body or instilled by their creator.  While easily considered grotesque, disrespectful, and/or dangerous, educated folks would not inherently call them "evil."
Sentient Undead (like liches and wraiths) have a non0 Div.  They are decision-making beings even if potentially unintelligent (the ghost of a frog).  Educated folks would call the creation of these inherently "evil," and even generally neutral folks would look at it as a perversion.  

2. What type of magic would I need to familiarize myself with to deal with most or all types of spirits.  K:Spirits?  No type of magic covers them all unless you are going for generalist wizard.

3. Clarification for:Control Undead:

   3.1"For mindless undead that you animated this is automatic"

for mindless i get automatic  control without a skill check if space available? for animated that you animated

    3.2 "Requires concentration to maintain but only requires an action when giving new orders or actively controlling/puppetting them for an action."

        3.2.1 I get instant control but require action to command? yes

        3.2.2. Actively controlling them for action is i have precise control over whwt they do by using an action? yes, puppet style

   3.3. "but would turn into several rolls grapple style normally"

        3.3.1 When does it turn into grapple rolls - in all other circumstances except the automatic one just described

         3.3.2what type of attributes if any are used? Divinity if you are the aggressor, Div with the possibility of Knowledge if you are the defender

   3.4 "Controlled undead can be maintained beyond their animation time as long as there is no break in concentration."

        3.4.1 when concentration  is broke are the bodies unusable after this like some systems do? Or do they return to being just a corpse?  animated ones past duration will just fall back into being a corpse.  you can pick them back up again.  if its destroyed or consecrated that will prevent reanimation

4. Clarification on Program Zombie

   4.1  "Takes an hour to complete.  The same instructions can be programmed into up to #Ranks of zombies in the same hour.  "

     4.1.1 Takes an hour regardless of ranks? Yes

      4.1.2 can I give only a single set of programs to #Rank of zombies or multiple. Example of what  i mean is. I have 4 ranks. I wish to program 2 zombies to patrol perimeter and program 2 zombies to fight each other. Can I accomplish this in a single 1 hour ritual. Or would it take two separate 1 hour rituals to accomplish this. -2 separate hours if there is any difference in programming. 

5. Further Clarification  on Concentration

  5.1 is it always the same attribute know or con, or can that change? can change

5.2 if it does change does one skill apply to both? yes

Thank you that was helpful.

Does know necromancy cap all necro related skills?

Some other skills.

Sense Dead: I can sense an area that has corpses  the further and less amount the harder to sense. Ranks can increase sensitivity and also information  gained, how many, condition  etc.

But maybe we are walking and unbeknownst to many we are walking over an old battlefield and 6 ft below us are dozens if not hundred old corpses. I might sense that even before walking over them.

Unsure in name but: a way to maintain concentration  while asleep. Either through Spores or another method

Does know necromancy cap all necro related skills? - No, but it could impact your ability to add new necro skills when out in the middle of nowhere

Sense Dead is fine

Concentration while sleeping is theoretically fine, but not going to get what you want.  Endurance cap for control undead is typically Know+Con in minutes.  For something very simple (like "follow me" while travelling; or "sit still" while programming) this can be pushed to Know+Con in hours.  Any undead past then either need to be just-corpses hanging around to pop up when needed, or they need to be programmed to get to your "in days" math.

If it wasn't clear, if you have zombies programmed to "follow you" in days, assuming you have the open slots in your control undead you can still over-write/add-to those orders with an action during combat.  If you lose concentration on a programmed zombie, it reverts to its programming rather than a corpse.  this also means it would not be helpless like a newly animated corpse (unless something interrupted you while you had it "sitting still" for the programming process).

https://j8gaming.com/j8-system-resources/obscure-precedents-design-discussion/
post#4 exhaustion rules

Actually  falling back on programming  is super helpful I did not know that.

So I could have programming defend me. Wo if I fall asleep or go down in combat they will fall back on that?

yep

Goddammit of course you're a necromancer, now I have to roleplay how to be okay with that 🙄 

Posted by: @gingerprime

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Goddammit of course you're a necromancer, now I have to roleplay how to be okay with that 🙄 

not necessarily

we can hit up some of the appropriate lines and angles on that tonight

Posted by: @jaquin

↑

Posted by: @gingerprime

↑

Goddammit of course you're a necromancer, now I have to roleplay how to be okay with that 🙄 

not necessarily

we can hit up some of the appropriate lines and angles on that tonight

I was mostly giving him shit lol, I would have figured it out, but that's good to hear 👍 

Are there similar skills to strong Zombie for other features.

Agility, perception, Initiative, or avoid etc?

Posted by: @jaquin

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Strong Undead: replaces undead strength from base attribute (per type, Zombies are all 1's) with #Ranks.  Options for all attributes (Agile Undead, Perceptive Undead, etc).  Base Zombies will still wield whatever happens to be in their hands.

typo b/c zombies have 0Div but otherwise this should address your question?

@jaquin yes i apparently  sidnt read.  But what about other "attribute like" things.

Avoid, Initiative, maybe even bonus vitality?

The last time this was iterated it was only based around the derivative statistics.  Avoid, Sanity, Init, Focus, SDC, accuracy, damage.

This time I iterated around the attributes... for totally arbitrary, no reason but whim.

I don't care which template you use, building around stats or attributes.  It just needs to be one of them, not both.

ugh another typo ><  

undead don't have Con either

been too long apparently my brain is getting lax 

they do start with base SDC determined by your Animate ranks

coming back to me slowly

@jaquin right. Is there a formula?

Is it 1 to 1?

4 ranks equal 4 sdc or whatever. Or is there more to it?

If I go attribute route, can I still take one that increase sdc?

yeah its one to one, but you basically have two skills that add to it in either selection

Animate skill + either Toughness or Undead Str depending on your angle

no gentle repose yet, how old be your current zombies?  /note to self develop a rot scale rofl.  unless you are feeling creative and want to hit da webz on that, if so feel free

what is their current programmed order?

probably these are better as updates to their stat block rather than standalone answers, on the assumption of there will be more later.

@jaquin okay have Preservation 1

Hope for it to apply to organics in general helping food stay good too.

As for current program is probably something simple like Protect me or defend me.

have Preservation 1

Hope for it to apply to organics in general helping food stay good too.
 - Yep

As for current program is probably something simple like Protect me or defend me.
- from K:Necromancy 2:
   The difference between phrasing can be particularly noted when displayed in the racial disparity of the host body.  It is easier to apply complex tasks in a previously intelligent host than an animal one, although there are ways to instill this ability (see section 5: Intelligent Zombies?).  This precision can be of great benefit when refining advanced orders, but must be understood lest your hosts seem all too independent when not directly under your Control.

   So for example:
Protect Me: Your preservation is highest importance.  More likely to take "ready action to throw myself in front of incoming danger," both more valuable as a defense against traps and obstacles but less valuable for them to act offensively.
Guard Me: Your safety is highest importance.  More likely to interpret an intelligent difference between traps and aggressors, and to deal with them differently.  The balanced option.
Defend Me: Your security is highest importance.  More likely to focus on social cues of aggression, causing more offensive reactions against both casters and people talking shit.  But useless against traps and obstacles.

Rank2 programming can program two of these, with one of them having priority or leaving it up to your improved zombie-Guile.  As always your Control orders take priority whether you are giving a new order or puppeting them.  The zombie-Guile is going to reduce the frequency with which they need to make in-game checks, but a roll can always be the fallback when ambiguous.

I think for now while in city, protect me is the move.

The danger gonna come from a sneaky mugger or an accident befalling me

Edited my 2nd post in this thread with an abridged backstory of Arthure